Cows, Canada, and the Call to Christ with Joey Reichhoff
“Jesus accepts you just as you are but he doesn’t let you stay that way.”
In this episode, Abby is joined by guest Joey Reichhoff as he speaks on his journey from rebellion to pastorhood and what he's learned along the way about...
- how to wrestle with doubts and questions
- being okay with not being okay
- walking with confidence, even when your identity is unfinished
“I don’t want to base my faith or my parenting or any sort of leadership on fear.”
About Joey
Joey Reichhoff grew up in southern Wisconsin. Although ministry had been placed on his heart as a teenager, he spent over a decade working on farms before the Lord called him to his first official ministry job. Since then, he has led small churches in both New Jersey and Minnesota. Joey married his wife Leanne in 2006, and they are raising four children together: Oskar, Mischa, Henry, and Rowan. In his free time, Joey enjoys birdwatching, photography, trying new foods with his wife, and taking his children out on adventures.
https://cornerstonechurchstpaul.org/
Read the Podcast
Intro: Welcome to Beyond the Bar, the podcast where coffee and conversation are a catalyst for growth. If you’ve been searching for that coffee-with-a-friend experience that leaves you feeling seen, met, and encouraged, you’ve come to the right place. So grab your cup, listen up, and together we’re going Beyond the Bar.
Abby: Hey guys, welcome to Beyond the Bar, I’m your host, Abby. I’m really excited about today’s episode, we are gonna be sitting down with a friend of mine, Joey Reichhoff. So I’m just gonna get right into it and introduce him. Thanks for being on the show. We talked bout this like month ago, maybe. I was in the process, it was still behind the scenes, hadn’t even announced publicly that I was doing the podcast, but you were up for a conference and I was like, “Hey, would you ever think about being a guest on my not-yet-released podcast?” and you said, "Yes!” right away, so thanks for being here.
Joey: I mean, this isn’t normally my jam, but just to sit down and chat with you and support you and drink some of your good coffee, I’m all about it, so.
Abby: I love it. Well, could you maybe start by giving our guests just a little brief intro into who you are?
Joey: Who am I? That is a good question, I’m still trying to figure that one out. Um, yeah, I’m a father. I’m a husband. Pastor. I wear a lot of different hats, I try to fit them all under one hat of just being a child of God. But yeah, I’ve been married to my wife for 18 years now. We have four children, ages 13 down to 8, life is a circus a lot of times, and I’ve been pastoring this church in St. Paul for the last six years. Prior to that, I helped pastor at a church out in New Jersey for a year, and before that I was working on farms. So…
Abby: Quite a different road of, um, work experience.
Joey: Yes.
Abby: Has it been six years that you guys have been in St. Paul? Wow, that flew by.
Joey: Yeah.
Abby: That’s crazy.
Joey: It has.
Abby: Yeah, wow.
Joey: I was just talking to someone the other day how it actually feels like home now. I always feel like it takes several years for a place to feel like home, and it finally feels like we’re in our spot.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. That feels good. Like just recently started to feel like that?
Joey: Probably within the last couple years.
Abby: Okay, okay. That’s so fun. So could you, your background has been in church, before? Like, you grew up in church, right? Could you maybe give a little insight and peek into like, Joey of his youth, growing?
Joey: “Joey of his youth…” Yeah, I grew up in a reformed church in southern Wisconsin. I remember just being at church a lot. We did church, and this is in the 80s and early 90s and stuff. Sunday morning church, we did evening service every week, Wednesday night kids group, Sunday School, my mom worked a part-time job at the church for a while… So as kids, you know, me and my sister were at church when she was working, and we would find things to do; read or play around or whatever, try not to get in trouble. But I was at church a lot and very very involved all growing up.
Abby: And then, like, how did you go from, you were in church, growing up in church, was it always like, did you love it, did you resent being there so much?
Joey: As a small child, that’s all I knew, you know, and I loved going there because I had friends at church and family members and things like that, so it was kind of a chance to be around people I liked. As I started to get older, you know, I started thinking for myself. Sometimes it was more of a challenge than others, but like, all of my childhood, um, I have pretty fond memories of church, early on.
Abby: Yeah. And then, growing out of the younger years, going, moving into like, high school, that kind of same thing, liked it?
Joey: No, that part was a challenge. I just, I find whether you’re churched or not, going through those adolescent teen years, you know, you start to question a lot of things in life. You’re starting to build your own identity, question the way that you were raised or just things in life, you know, and then for those of us who grew up in the church and you’re there all the time and you’re hearing certain things and its shaping who you are or who they want you to be, you start to push back a little bit, and say, “Well, why do we do that?” or whatever. So yeah, as I got older I started questioning, and I think, I think it started out fairly innocent. When I realized that some of my questions were bothering people, then it started to be more about, “Hey, I can stir the pot a bit…” you know. And then some rebellious attitude would kind of kick in and stuff with that too.
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: But I think, you know, it started out being pretty innocent, just, ‘Why do we believe this?” or “Why do we do that?” But yeah, I got some pushback on some of those questions.
Abby: What do you do with pushback? Like, how did you respond to that?
Joey: I think, you know, early on when I was younger, it was just like, “Oh, okay,” I, you know, just kind of thinking through it in my head, like, “Oh, I just need more faith,” right, “I need to think about that further,” or whatever. As I got a little older I’m just like, “No, I need to know an answer to ‘Why do we do this?’ and if you can’t give me one then I have a hard time respecting your stance on something,” you know, because if you don’t even know why you do what you do, do you even believe it?
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: You know, so that’s where I started to get kind of sassy, I guess, in my teen years.
Abby: Did you find the answers? Like, at that time at least.
Joey: No.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: I don’t think so.
Abby: Okay. So did that carry into adulthood at all then?
Joey: Very much so. I fight against that all the time. I have, still to this day, I still have kind of a rebellious streak to me, like, “Oh you tell me I can’t do that? I’ll show you,” but it’s not in a, it’s not in a good way, you know, where someone would do like a startup podcast or business or something and be like “I’m gonna show the world I can do this!” Mine’s more like, “I’m just gonna do it because it bothers you and I can.” And I really got to fight against that sinful attitude I would say in my heart that just likes to get a rise out of people. And you know, now that I’m 40, it happens much less than it did even 10 years ago, you know, but yeah, it’s still, it’s that flesh part of me that wants to do things my way just to, just to be a rebel.
Abby: I feel like I can relate to that sort of attitude, so is there was, you said like now that you’re 40 it’s less so, but are there ways that you’ve, what have you done to curb that?
Joey: Boy, we’re getting right into this. For me, as a Christian, it’s surrendering to the Lord, you know, realizing that I can’t be my own person. I was created for something, created to honor, to love, and I don’t think you can truly do that by just being a rebel all the time, and so it’s a curb, it’s just surrendering to the Lord, saying, “I’m yours.” Surrendering to his people. Like we’re not created to do life alone, you know, and just being able to surrender to a people. It’s, and when I say surrender, it’s not like, “Oh, you can do whatever you want with me, you’re telling me what to do.” It’s more like, I’m posturing myself to be a servant, to be a help, to be an encourager, to be a lover, rather than, “I’m gonna show you how I can live.”
Abby: Yeah. Yeah, I think that is super difficult though, particularly, and again, like I would be more this way particularly for people who have like stronger personality and they have opinions and they want to know answers and they want to be independent.
Joey: Firstborns.
Abby: Yeah. (Laughs) Are you a firstborn?
Joey: Yeah.
Abby: Oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah, like, you kind of want to like, plow your way forward and do what you want to do. So I’ve wrestled with that my whole life of like, how do you go about posturing yourself in that way without not being who you were created to be at the same time?
Joey: Yeah, that’s a good question. I don’t know if I have answers for you. I think a big part of it is just learning to be humble. You know, I think when we’re young, especially as kids or teenagers, we have this tendency to be like, “I know what’s right.” And it’s funny, like, as 40-year-old now looking back at younger, me, it’s like, “You didn’t know.”
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: Just, just being more humble and more questions, but, but asking questions in a way that was not like me where I’m like, questioning to challenge. You know, I think when I said that when I first started like questioning to understand, I think to have that and be humble about that, that’ll be helpful.
Abby: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, because I think you can see that even in kids. Like, when you’re, when a kid is going like, “Well, why do we do that?” And they’re like, even just from a little age, like watching like my nephew Owen now nd like you can tell when he’s trying to understand something and you can tell when he’s trying to be rebellious about something and be naughty and you can like physically see that difference in kids sometimes, which are totally different things in even how you want to respond to them.
Joey: Yeah, I found as a parent too, like sometimes they’ll ask the dumbest question, right? But if you think like, they’re not trying to be dumb. They’re trying to understand.
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: So like, you know, when we live in St. Paul and a kid asks for a horse as a pet, you just walk them through that. (Abby laughs) Like, “Okay,” you know, “we can consider having a horse,” you know, “where are we gonna keep it? What are we gonna feed it? How are we gonna pay for all of that?” You know, and they start connecting the dots themselves and you realize, like, it’s not out of rebellion. It’s just curious, like, “I wanted a horse.”
Abby: Which kid wanted a horse?
Joey: Oh, I just made that up.
Abby: Oh, okay, I was like, “which kid wanted a horse?”
Joey: No, that was just the first thing that came to mind. But it’s, I think there’s just this, if we just patiently walk people through some other questions and help them come to the conclusion themselves, you diffuse a lot of that rebellion.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. So did you ever have like a rebellious kind of stage nowhere some of those questions, asking things, turned into something more than that, like kind of good question asking? Or was it just like smooth sailing through adolescence and then into adulthood?
Joey: Oh, no, I rebelled.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: No, there was things, no, I mean, a big thing would’ve been like, you know, my mom was always adamant, we can’t go out to eat on Sunday, you know, ‘cause it’s the Sabbath. We’re not supposed to work and if we go out to eat we’re helping someone else to work on Sunday, and things like that, so there, there was a lot of what I would say rules around what w did and I was questioning the heart of it. Like, “What exactly is the Sabbath?” You know, and wearing hats in church, you know, as a young boy, I was never allowed to wear a hat. But then I would read the Bible for myself and be like, “Well, then it says that a woman’s head should be covered,” and like, “Well, if I’m not allowed to, why aren’t these other women wearing hats?” Or just whatever, you know, these random things that would show up in church culture and I’m reading the Bible and like, “I don’t see that explicitly. Can you help me get there?? But I, it wasn’t using that nice of tone or language when I was challenging it.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. But I think that’s a common struggle for people when there’s apparent rules that don’t feel like they make sense, or like you said, like, “Well how do I get there? I don’t see how you get there.” I think that can be a turn off for lot of people to church.
Joey: Mm-hmm.
Abby: And just the culture in general, and I think you hear that lot, super judged and really like, “Oh, I wouldn’t be welcomed there,” and “I don’t know how to follow all those rules.” So it’s gonna be a huge turn off for people.
Joey: Yeah, I remember, like, you know, tattoos were always a big thing. Like it says, right explicitly in Leviticus or whatever, like, “Don’t get tattoos,” but it’s like, yeah, but then you miss, you know, two verses ahead where it says, “Don’t eat shellfish,” or “Don’t wear clothing made of two different materials.” I’m like, “Why aren’t we obeying that one and this one is such a big deal?” and I, like, it just, it did something in me that I just started challenging everything.
Abby: Yeah, yeah, you know, which is ironic because now you’re a pastor.
Joey: I am a pastor now, yes.
Abby: So how did like- et me there. How did you get from like, “This bothers me inherently,” to like, “This is actually what I do now for a job.”
Joey: I don’t think I was ever bothered by the gospel itself. You know, I always believed there was times in my life where, you know, outwardly I would push the limits or cross the line or whatever, not always living for the Lord, but I think in my heart I always said, “This is what I believe.” And we can go different directions with that, but you know, because your actions will reflect your beliefs so I wasn’t always faithful in my beliefs, but I never, I never really rebelled against the, the Bible itself or, you know, yeah, the foundation of Christin belief. It was more like the culture, especially the church culture of the 80s and 90s that I really struggled with.
Abby: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Joey: Yeah, so now we’ve had a cultural shift in our whole society within church culture. I mean, things are much different now than thy were when I was growing up. They, I think, and ultimately I think it’s the Lord’s grace, you know, He, He gave me faith. He’s kept me faithful, despite my rebellion.
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: So I credit the Lord ultimately, but yeah, I think there’s just been a lot of shift and maturity at my part, both in life and spiritually.
Abby: Yeah, and in like, so, I, you were my youth leader for at least a little bit; I don’t remember how long…
Joey: It was like two years.
Abby: Yeah, it was like a chunk of time-
Joey: I could only handle you kids for two years.
Abby: (Laughs) …before we moved on to somethin else. No, but I remember you were like a youth pastor then for a while with, with me and the way you went about, and I actually had like a variety of youth pastors, so like, the time I was in youth group, we kind of cycled through a bunch of different youth leaders so I got exposure to like, different styles of teaching, but I remember with you, there was just such a willingness to like, let us process things, which I just hadn’t experienced before, and maybe that was just because that was something that like, when you would have been my age you would have been doing yourself. But it was so different, it was a lot less about like, “Here’s what I believe,” and impress it upon you, it was like, “No, let’s wrestle this out together.” So it created space and an opportunity to come with your questions and like how you were feeling or things you were curious about and actually talk about it, which I appreciated growing up.
Joey: Well, it’s great to hear, I mean, I’m glad there was some impact. It was, for me, growing up, there was always, I feel like so much of the church culture was based on fear. Like, you have to believe this or this might happen to you or whatever. You know, it’s just like, there was no margin to just question things in a healthy way, and you now, I’ve only been a parent for 13 years now, I don’t know what it’s like further on in teenage years parenting a teenager, but I just don’t want to base my faith or my parenting or any sort of leadership based on fear.
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: You know, like it’s okay to struggle, it’s okay to wrestle, it’s okay to question. I think it’s okay to go to God angry and express that anger to him. At least you’re talking to him, you know what I mean? And just let him help you process that and, and find healing where you need to find healing. But like, for someone to say, “No, you can’t feel that way”? That’s just fear-based.
Abby: Yeah. I think that is so like, life-giving of a thought, and what makes me sad is when people don’t think that that’s allowed at the table, kind of like you’re saying, because when you’re going through something hard or you have a question or like, life is, you know, you are angry and you’re feeling all of those things, to have somebody tell you that you’re not supposed to be feeling that way is like, “Well then, what…” like, “what do I do with this thing?” and like, “If I can’t bring it to church or I can’t bring it to the Lord, then what answer do I have at that point? Where do I go with that thing?” And if it’s not welcomed within the doors of a church, then the world is my option which is not super hopeful, but I think a lot of people experience that. They feel like they have to walk into the doors of the church perfect, and if they don’t, then they’re not welcome there.
Joey: That’s been a lot of my story, just whether it’d be, you know, rowing up in my family situation or the church situation. There was always this- and some of it I think was just me, my personality, things like that- but I think some of it was that culture of, you know, you have to be right or perfect or whatever you want to use in order to be accepted here.
Abby: How have you overcome that, or have you?
Joey: I mean I think it’s always gonna be a struggle for all of us in our own ways. You know, for me, I don’t know if I have completely overcome it. It’s something I wrestle with and struggle with and bring to the Lord often. I think like, it, like, you know, I kind of joked about it before, about firstborns. I think there’s a legit science there too about the firstborn having certain pressure on them. But yeah, just the culture I grew up in, it was just more like, “You have to look this way, act this way, talk this way, to be a good Christian.” and when I started really understanding the gospel, like, “No, I’m not perfect. I never will be perfect. I need Jesus, the Perfect One, to take my place,” you know, that punishment towards my sin. And when I realize, like, “Oh, my identity can be in Him and then I’m okay being not okay.” And that doesn’t give us, you know, freedom to just sin however we want. I should be fighting against the wickedness inside of us. But there’s this, there’s such freedom to know, “I’m okay not being okay.” Like, God loves me and God accepts me and God’s working on me and God’s leading me and protecting me, like all this, it gives me comfort. Like, yeah, I messed up and I can admit that now. I don’t have to fake it anymore, you know?
Abby: Yeah, yeah. It’ so interesting because, again, like I knew you when I was in my teenage years and that was something that I wrestled with a ton, like the pressure to be perfect, but obviously, again, like firstborn, so maybe that’s just the thing, but the pressure to be perfect, the pressure to feel like it all had to be right and I needed to look strong and put together and like, nothing was, you know, bothering me at all, so I wrestled with that too, feeling like there were certain expectations I had to have before I could walk in the room. But what’s interesting is, I would have never guessed at that stage in life that that was something that you ever wrestled with, ‘cause you just seemed to be so confidently who you were. And it wasn’t the stereotyped goody-two-shoes Christian. Like, you were never that to me growing up. You did have tattoos, and you liked rock music, and also taking pictures of birds and people and it was so like, you were just so “Joey”, and in a way that, at least from the outside, looked unapologetic. So it’s interesting that you’re saying that you did struggle with that identity, ‘cause I would have never, like…
Joey: Well, it’s weird, ‘cause yeah, I agree with certain things you’re saying… on the tattoo thing, I don’t know if you want to get into this or not, but when I was probably in middle school, late middle school, early high school, somewhere in there, we were at a family function on time, and one of my family members pointed at my cousin who had several tattoos on his arms and said, he pointed at my cousin and said “You’re a freak.” And that was a defining moment for me that said, “You’re just looking at the outside. You’re looking at what you want to make someone, and you’re not looking at who they really are.” And it was that moment where I said, I never want to associate with people that think like that. I would rather associate with the freaks. I don’t know if I’ve ever fit in completely with the freaks. I don’t know if I’ve ever fit in completely with the Christians I grew up in. It’s probably not, a little hodgepodge of both, but I just, like for me, it was like, I want to- and this was more my rebellious younger years- but like, I’ll show you I can look like a freak and still be on fire for Jesus. So there was some of that. Yeah, you brought up some of the other stuff too, where I don’t know where I fit in. I don’t, I’m a weirdo, you know, I listen to rock music, I got tattoos, but I love taking pictures of birds and nature and, you know, butterflies. That’s where I really get teased, when I start taking pictures of bugs and butterflies and stuff. But like, I don’t know, I am who I am, and it’s taken me years to get there, but like, I always felt like there was certain parts of me I had to hide from other people rather than just being completely me.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. It’s just, again, like, interesting and cool to hear you open up about it, because it wouldn’t have been something I would have ever thought you had problem doing. Like again, when I knew you, you were my youth leader, you were inseminating cows for a living, and like, did listen to rock music, also raised his hands in worship and like was on the worship team and was still in tattoos, was being a dad, raising babies, being the husband, like you were all of those things, and like a thing that was like Joey, and it never appeared like you struggled with that like it-
Joey: Yeah, it probably- like I’m a good faker. I’ve gone through periods of, you know, depression and things like that too, and people would never guess. So I think that there’s some faking there. There’s probably also just like, at that time too, I think the Lord was really working on my heart, so what you saw was legit. But it was a journey to become more mature and confident in who I am. But there again, I think the journey is an important word, because when we think we’ve arrived, the Lord will either peel back another layer or allow something to happen in our life and we’ll realize, like, “I’m still on a journey.” You know, there’s more layer’s here.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. No, I totally can relate to that, so now, now, obviously getting the chance to sit and talk about it more and be older myself, going on more of my journey, I can see that. But it’s just interesting because unless you sit down and have a conversation with somebody, like, how would you know? I just did my episode like a couple of weeks ago and it was called “The Journey to Redemption” and the whole idea and concept behind it is like still being on the journey, and like, the story’s not done yet. And I think that’s true for everybody, So I think, like even you just saying like, you’re still in process. You’re still… I think you opened up the beginning of the episode with like, “Joey. Who am I? I don’t know.” Like, like…
Joey: Yeah, I mean, I can tell you things about me, but who am I? I’m figuring that out.
Abby: But I love that, ‘cause I think there’s a lot of people, particularly, well even probably a lot of men, who like, just want to be viewed as like, “I’ve got it together,” like, “This is who I am, I’m super strong,” and yada yada.
Joey: I was thinking about that earlier today. It’s just, especially in this, um, this part of the state or part of the country, there’s this like tendency to be hyper-masculine, and like that was another thing I struggled with when we moved to this area years ago. It was like, I don’t fit the hyper-masculine role. You know, I still struggle tying knots (Abby laughs) when I had to tie something down in my car, you know, like, yeah, and I’m always embarrassed or worried like when I’m around other men and I got to tie a knot or something. Just things like that. And it’s like, who cares, you know what I mean?
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: Like I’m finally at that spot in my life where I’m like, I’m okay not being okay. “Hey, could you help me with this? Could you teach me more about that?” And almost always people are willing to, you know, teach you things, and you can learn. And again, that goes back to the humility thing. Like, I don’t have to fake being proud or whatever when I really don’t know what I’m talking about. But how many people do that?
Abby: Oh I think it’s super common! I mean, it’s not just a guy thing, it can be a human thing, but it’s so prevalent. And to be able to show up at something and go, like, “Well, this is not my gifting, I’m not really good at that, I don’t know.” But like you said, particularly in men and in this area, I think it’s super common to just be like, “Nope, got it together. I don’t have emotions. I don’t have feelings. It’s totally fine.”
Joey: Right. “I’m gonna cry…” “I’m out of wind…”
Abby: Yeah, but then like, your vulnerability to be able to just admit honestly and in humility and just say like, “Actually, I kind of struggled with depression before,” which I didn’t know that either.
Joey: Mm-hmm. Surprise.
Abby: Yeah. (Laughs)
Joey: No, it’s, and I don’t wanna go out on the rail of the trail for you here too, but like, you know, every so often in the news, you… like Robin Williams when he committed suicide and stuff like that. It’s like, “I would have never guessed,” you know, “You seem so happy and fun!” You know? It’s like, I think that’s how we are, you know. We hide those things we don’t want people to know about us, and we, we give off this persona of who we want others to think we are rather than just being us, and sometimes life sucks, you know, and it’s okay to sit in that for a little bit: “I’m depressed, I need help,” you know, and being at that point now where I’m like, “I’m okay to ask for some help."
Abby: Yeah, I think that’s so cool because a lot of people don’t, and it just gives encouragement, or at least like for me, looking up to somebody then, it’s like, “That’s so encouraging that I don’t have to be put together at 40,” like, “I don’t have to have made it by then.” And I can still ask for help. I can still acknowledge the areas. And it’s a challenge even now when I don’t have to pretend like I know it all or that I’m done yet, because that is a lot of what you see on social media. It’s a lot of what you see even as people walking around. Probably even the people you’re sitting next to in a church. You could be at church and they’re people you know your whole life, and they’re acting like they don’t have any problems.
Joey: That makes me think of one Sunday… it was probably close to a year ago now, but I mean, I blew up at my kids on the way to church, like really bad. It was bad and I felt terrible after it. I’m like, “How can I lead a service?” you know what I mean? I yelled at my kids and I just slammed on the brakes and all this stuff. And I just felt like I needed to repent to my children in front of the church and just tell everybody, like, “Sometimes I sin.” Like this, you know, I mess up big time and I’m sorry. You know, but I think it was so powerful for people to see that. Like, “Oh, the pastor messes up like that. I do too, and it’s okay.” But what do we do with it then?
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: You know, if I’m just, “Well that’s the way I am.” No, “I’m sorry, and I’m going to do my best never to let that happen again because a dad should never speak to their kids like that.” You know what I mean? But it was just so freeing to just repent to my kids in front of my church family. I am not perfect, you know? And it’s okay.
Abby: Yeah, I think we need more people, myself included, who live with that level of authentic conversation and vulnerability, admitting when we’re wrong, asking for help, asking for forgiveness, and being in the mud of relationship together, because if you don’t, you’re going through all of these things behind closed doors, and then what? Like, you know?
Joey: Well, then we have a tendency to hide more in our life and more and more, you know, next thing you know, like, we don’t even know who we are anymore.
Abby: Right, right. Yeah, I, yeah. And like, again, I was raised in the church too, and so there is this sometimes culture idea of like, you have to present that you have it all together, like, put on your Sunday best, walk into the building, and like, that’s that, when actually life is falling apart for you. And it wasn’t until life really did start falling apart for me that I started going, like, “I can’t fake this.” And that was when it, like, when I actually couldn’t fake it anymore, not that I was, like you said, not that it was inauthentic before, it was just like a part of you, it wasn’t maybe everything you were struggling with. So it wasn’t like I was lying, it just was like only a piece of me. When I could no longer just like let that be the only piece that showed, because everything else was so hard, it like forced you into learning how to do vulnerable and how to do “I’m not okay and other people are going to see that and I’m going to have to have some help.”
Joey: Well, and I think we have to be careful about who and here and how we air our dirty laundry, but sometimes I think it’s appropriate to just let everyone know. Other times I think it’s important to share with trusted friends or whatever because, and the next thing you know, like, I’ve even done it with people I don’t know well, if I’m feeling a certain way or whatever I’ll just be honest. And then it opens up them to be honest in a way that they wouldn’t have been otherwise. So I just feel like whenever we’re more vulnerable with others it just helps everyone connect better and grow and sharpen one another.
Abby: I definitely agree but I’ve seen that play out in my own life too, which is cool. So in that kind of like, wrestle, struggle, being vulnerable, how does that play out? You are, like, we’ve said this, you are a pastor now, so you clearly didn’t reject the whole church culture. Does that impact how you pastor?
Joey: I feel like to give a good answer to that I’d have to think about that for a while, but I’m sure it has. I don’t know. I don’t like going along with the whole “normal church culture” thing, like, you see like a- and I’m not ripping on the bigger churches and things like that, but there’s like a, there’s a certain culture to that, a certain culture to American Christianity that I still kind of push back against a little bit because it’s, I don’t feel like it’s always helpful. And larger churches and stuff like that, they do a lot of good as well, I’m not trying to take away from any of that.
Abby: Do you just mean not always helpful as in like kind of like the more mass marketing idea?
Joey: Yeah, yeah…
Abby: And just like, we’ll touch on what’s soft and easy because it’s like, easily palatable.
Joey: Yep.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: And I’m not afraid to just say, “Hey, let’s just be real, and it’s okay not to do things other people’s ways just because it’s working for them.” Like, you have to know your own people. And I just find, like our church is very small, and just modeling this authenticity and vulnerability and it helps us be more real. It helps us understand the scriptures better, and I just don’t think you can get that type of vibe in a bigger church culture, because you got to, there again, I think you got to find your small groups and things like that. You need that intimacy in order to grow and be vulnerable and stuff.
Abby: Yeah. Were you always like, growing up younger teenage years or like early 20s, were you always better at doing that vulnerable piece or is that something that’s just come later?
Joey: I think I’ve always recognized and felt it. I didn’t always handle it in the best way, you know, I needed to get or find ways to deal with it, but I feel like I’ve always been quite vulnerable and sensitive overall.
Abby: So like a feeler, but not always.
Joey: For sure, for sure. There’s times, there’s times I can sense feelings in other people that they haven’t even recognized yet, which can make me a good pastor. It can also be a negative trait when I start to internalize my own feelings. You know what I mean?
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: Like, I’m such a feeler and then it just starts to weigh down on me and that’s when I slip into the depression kind of things.
Abby: Yeah, but so when you were younger and you didn’t express it as much, what did you do with it?
Joey: I spent a lot of time alone as a child, you know. I was very creative, imaginative, I would play a lot alone, but then I would also, there’d be times I’d cry alone, you know, because I felt like I couldn’t really talk about it with my friends who weren’t experiencing the same thing or whatever, or my parents because they wouldn’t understand. So I dealt with it, but not always great. You know, as a kid I would, and as a teenager I think I just bottled it all up and would get really angry.
Abby: Okay. Was anger something you struggled with then?
Joey: For sure.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: But it often would be like, “I know it’s not right to be angry and lash out at others,” so I would internalize it and start directing it towards myself. And I remember, you know, in my teenage years I started cutting. Not terrible, but just enough to, you know, “Is this an answer?”
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: I mean, working on farms and stuff, working with animals, it’s easy to hit animals and take out frustration on them and things like that. And there’s stuff now looking back as an adult back on my former self, like… “You were hurting so bad.” You know what I mean?
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: And you didn’t know how to deal with those emotions. And I just, I have… my heart breaks for my younger self because I just didn’t know what to do. At the time though, I just thought, “This is just how you deal with it.”
Abby: Mm-hmm. When did that change?
Joey: Well, when you get married and you start living with someone, they will point out…
Abby: It was all Leanne, huh? (Laughs)
Joey: No, I mean, the anger thing was still a little bit of an issue when we got married ‘cause all of the sudden I’m confronted with someone pointing out my sin. I just think maturity in spiritual things, maturity in life has taught me to deal with it in better ways.
Abby: Yeah, but like, the cutting, did that continue first?
Joey: No, it was short, but it was just one of those things where it was like, “I don’t know what to do with this anger.”
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: Yeah, there was, there was one moment I just lashed out out of anger and cut myself and spent the looney bin.
Abby: Really…
Joey: You probably didn’t know that.
Abby: I didn’t know that.
Joey: Yeah, it was my first time ridden in an ambulance with a police officer, but it was kind of a wake-up call for me, where I wasn’t thinking, I grabbed a knife and slashed my arm, and it was kind of a wake-up call, like, “What are you doing?” Is this a healthy way to deal with anger? Like, “Thank God you didn’t do it to someone else,” but it’s not any better doing it to yourself, you know. But then just learning, like, what’s healthy ways to talk about this and deal with some of this stuff and be okay not being okay, you know, being vulnerable with others.
Abby: Was there a person, or like, somebody you started to let in then to deal with that differently?
Joey: I think when we, when we moved up to this area, the Lord was really gracious to me, like getting me in a good church, because up until that point, you know, I wasn’t a very healthy church member. I was going through the motions and things like that, but I think the Lord was doing something in my heart here. And then giving me a church that had men that loved the Lord and loved their families and were just modeling with Godly men are supposed to be like. I think that all helped influence me to step up. It was at that time I started listening to a lot of preachers online and things like that. Some of them have, what we would say “fallen from grace” now, which is, even looking back, like, the Lord used some of that preaching to really speak to me and mature me spiritually.
Abby: Yeah.
Joey: So it really meant an impact between what I was hearing and what I was seeing at church here. Being married, having kids really helped, you know, step me up to be more mature and really think about who I am and how I’m influencing others and all of that.
Abby: Yeah. But I just think it’s crazy how like, the Lord doesn’t leave you where you’re at.
Joey: No.
Abby: And just in such a grace-filled way, like there’s always the opportunity and the chance if you’re just willing to like, recognize yourself in the air, kind of like that moment for you of being like, “I don’t like this,” and like, “I don’t want to be this person,” and then there’s just like, like you said, like grace to move into something else then. And I’m assuming it was a messy process, not like a super easy one, like you woke up the next day and then you were like…
Joey: Yeah, I was just talking to someone you know about that… I don’t, I can’t think of anything in my life where it’s just been a change, you know. It’s always been a gradual process out of something or into something.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: Yeah.
Abby: But a journey to better, not the same guy, still going that way, which is cool.
Joey: yeah, I’ve often said, like, “Jesus accepts you just as you are but he doesn’t let you stay that way,” you know? Because true love would say, you know, “There’s harmful things in your life. There’s harmful things about your attitude, how you view others, how you view yourself,” and the Lord is kind and gracious and He’ll, as another friend of ours would say, he chips away at that, you know? And it’s just so, it’s so wonderful to not have that pressure, like, “Oh man, tomorrow I have to be totally different.” It’s like, no, He’s patient and kind and just chips away and it’s part of the journey and it’s okay.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. And part of that journey was even like your work journey.
Joey: Mm-hmm.
Abby: So you were not doing like, “ministry things” for a large portion of your life, correct?
Joey: Correct.
Abby: So how did you go from like, that? I don’t even know what you did post-high school. Like, what did you do post-high school?
Joey: I worked on a veal farm.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: So, around cattle. I worked on a veal farm through high school and then a year after, and then, um, like just from being a child there was always an interest in ministry of some sort. I think I was interested in like, overseas mission work and things like that, but looking back on it, I think that was more about the adventure than it was true love of spreading the gospel. But the Lord just kept those seeds very deep. So even though I worked on farms that year, I pursued a one-year Bible college to try to go in the missions direction. During that year, the Lord spoke to me, like, “Go do some more school.” Again, not really living for the Lord. I ended up getting an associate’s degree in Bible studies from a Bible school in Canada. It means nothing to me right now because like, I wasn’t really walking with the Lord at the time. I wasn’t taking anything in life serious.
Abby: That’s so interesting. So you’re going to Bible school and you’re saying now that you weren’t really living for the Lord.
Joey: Yeah. I think at the time I would have said I was, but looking back, I’m like, there’s- nothing in my life was really reflective of a true, changed, redeemed heart.
Abby: And did you ever get called out on that?
Joey: No, because I’m a good faker.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: You know, this is all, outwardly I was going through the right motions and things, but like, inwardly, I was just not living for the Lord.
Abby: Okay, okay. And then did Bible school in Canada?
Joey: So I did Bible school, met my, would become my wife there, and we moved to Wisconsin. She’s Canadian. It was easier for her to immigrate to the U.S. than for me to immigrate to Canada, so, and then my first job after getting married was working at a cheese factory because we live in Wisconsin. I hated that. I only worked there I think three or four months, and then this, this job for artificial insemination popped up, and I just thought, “What the heck.” I worked with cattle before, even though I didn’t really know what I was doing. But yeah, I ended up doing that for 10 and a half years.
Abby: Okay. All the while having like a heart for ministry.
Joey: Kind of.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: I mean, when I started that job, like, after marriage, Leanne and I looked at some sort of mission thing. We actually got accepted by a mission place and we were going to go overseas, and I just, I don’t know how I heard from the Lord the way I did, because like I said, I wasn’t really living for Him much at the time, but I felt very clear: “Don’t do this.”
Abby: Okay.
Joey: So I just got a job at a cheese factory, and then eventually the cattle breeding thing. And then I just kind of buried it all. I wasn’t interested in church. That job, I worked a lot of weekends, so I would get to church maybe once a month. So I think with that and then just where my heart was at, I didn’t care much about church and it wasn’t until we moved up here and found the church that you go to that the Lord changed that and I felt like all the walls came down.
Abby: Okay. What was that process like? The walls coming down? If you’ve been hard for a long time, if you’ve been a really good faker, like, you’ve been raised in church and a really good faker and all of this stuff is going on internally but you’re not really letting anybody see it so nobody’s ever calling you out on it?
Joey: Mm-hmm. Trying to think back… I still knew that church was the right thing to do, so, Leanne and I were, you know, I just told her, like, “We should find a church,” but I wasn’t super excited about it. Because a lot of churches had let me down in the past and things like that. But we tried one out in the city south of here a little bit, didn’t like it. Tried this one here and I don’t, like, the Lord just overwhelmed me. Just looking around and seeing men worshipping, leading… something, just broke, and I remember like tearing up, and like, “This is it. I just know this is where we’re supposed to be.” And a shift happened in my heart. I was just like, “You got to start pursuing the Lord. You’ve got to make it real.” You know?
Abby: And again, like you said, there’s not been like, dramatic shifts, so that wasn’t necessarily a dramatic shift, was it?
Joey: In what way?
Abby: Like, it just becoming real. If you had been faking it for so long, that wasn’t like, the next day you were becoming-
Joey: Oh, no no, but like, it got on a fast track.
Abby: Okay.
Joey: It was still a process, but it was faster than other things in my life, because, again, that’s, that’s when I started listening to some sermons all the time. You know, I’m walking barns, I got one headphone in listening to sermons, or whatever, and the Lord just started speaking to me through that and through the church here and men actually getting involved in my life and things like that and I got in a fast track. So all the, all the upbringing, I would say I had a lot of the dots, they just weren’t connected. And starting to have the dots connected here put me on that fast track. It’s like, “I get it now. I understand what all those Bible stories were about. I understand my purpose now in all of this.” It’s not just to be a good Christian, or, you know, to buck the system. It’s like, no, actually do something with this that matters.
Abby: And is that what you landed on for a purpose? Do something that matters?
Joey: I think so, I said it now, but I think that kind of the attitude. Like, you were created for something, do it. And some of that was, you know, a process here at church, like finding, “What are my gifts? What should I be doing specifically in that purpose of making disciples and making God know them?” So it was a little process there, but it was also like, I know what I need to do. Share the good news, because I get it now.
Abby: Yeah, yeah.
Joey: And it became real and I started seeing big changes in my life.
Abby: I just think that’s so cool, like this process of, you believed the thing the whole time, but this journey of like the belief connecting to action and being like an aligned person who’s moving forward and not this disconnect between all of the things you were feeling internally and your life actions and what you said you believed the whole time, which I think a lot of us can be guilty of doing. Claiming, like, “Yeah, I’m so for that,” and then you look at somebody’s life and you’re like, “What?”
Joey: Yeah, I guess, you know, what, the picture that just came into my mind when you’re sharing that, it’s like riding in a car. Like, when you’re a kid, you just get in the car ‘cause your parents tell you to and you just go along for the ride, you know? And then you get a little older and you’re big enough to sit in the passenger seat. And you start to see how things are working and be like, “I’m gonna be driving this car soon.” And then when it gets time to drive it, you’re like, “I don’t know if I actually want to. I don’t even know if I want to be in this car,” you know, and I think that moment was, the Lord just got me and it made sense, and I’m like, “Okay, I can get in the driver’s seat now. I know what I’m supposed to do and I know how to do it.” You know, weird analogy, but that’s just what I-
Abby: No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And unless you feel like you’ve been given the roadmap of where you’re supposed to go and the tools to know like, how do I actually drive said car, you, you don’t move forward. Like, I actually like the analogy because the first time that I got in the driver’s seat I was helping my dad put up a tree stand and it was like jimmy-rigged, this piece of steel that he was on, this tree stand, and I had to get in the driver’s seat for the first time ever driving like anything, and slowly put the as forward so it would like, relay up this thing. And so, terrified, little, I don’t even know how old I was, and I go to do it, and he’s like, “Hey, just so you know, if this falls, like it could cut my head off,” so like, pressure. Go to do it, sit in the driver’s seat, and like push on the gas slightly- he starts screaming.
Joey: It’s 12 year old Abby, sitting there…
Abby: Literally! I was like terrified to ride in a car after that because he was like “Stop, stop,” and I was like bawling. I mean sobbing, in the front seat. And so it’s kind of that same thing of like, if you feel unequipped on how to do the thing, how to use it, you don’t know how all this stuff works, you feel the pressure of like, I’m in something that could have like catastrophic results if it’s done poorly… that pressure can like make you not want to get into the driver’s seat and be like, “I can’t do this.” So I actually like the analogy.
Joey: Yeah, and I think part of me, like my story and what I see in a lot of younger people, especially nowadays, is like, they don’t wanna get in the driver’s seat ‘cause they’re scared they’re gonna mess up, or they just don’t want the responsibility or whatever. It’s like, no, this is good. Once you get this, it’s really good and you can really make a good impact. Now, if you’re not in a good spot, you can do a lot of damage, which is what has happened to me throughout the years, certain people have damaged me, but it just, in that season, the Lord connected the dots at your church, and I wasn’t afraid to get in the driver’s seat for once.
Abby: Yeah. So you mentioned that a lot of young people, like, you think it is something that they struggle with. What would be like your advice to people who are struggling with identity, who are struggling with knowing who they are, how to move forward, what they’re even created for, like, what they’re supposed to do?
Joey: Well, just being a Christ follower, I would say I have found and think the answer can only be in Jesus. So I would encourage people to go there and question along the way, you know, not on a rebellion, but if you’re seriously seeking the truth, you will find it, you know. If you’re scared, so is everybody. If you need help along the way, so does everybody. And just be vulnerable and ask questions and ask for help and you’ll get it. And it’s a process, that’s okay.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. It, you mentioned, like, you’ve been hurt by people, you’ve been hurt by people in the church. The Lord must have worked on that, because you’re still very much in church, leading a church, so how did you go from being hurt by multiple churches and like, still going?
Joey: Learning that no one’s perfect. So that same grace that I’ve received, I need to extend that to others. Again, not excusing any sort of sin. Sin needs to be dealt with, you know, and there’s consequences to it, but just also giving grace. Like, I haven’t always had the best relationship with my parents, but now as a parent you realize like how hard it is. You realize the, the culture that they grew up in, or that I was growing up in, and there has to be grace. Like who am I to think I’m a perfect parent now? You know? And just extending that grace to others I think really helps a lot. The church extending grace to people in church, like, we’re all on that journey and in different spots along that journey and I think it takes maturity both spiritually and in life to be okay with other people not being okay too. But it’s so important. It’s like, I’m no better than you, and even as a pastor, I’m no better than you, I struggle with the same things, like, I yell at my kids on the way to church, you know, like we just kind of have grace for ourselves, for one another, because the Lord wants to lavish it on all of us.
Abby: Yeah. I think it’s easy to forget that you’re not the center of your own world, and it’s really easy to not realize that you’re thinking that way. And when I’ve been hurt by people, I start to realize that the one I get really, like, I don’t wanna forgive that or I don’t wanna move past that or I wanna be really angry about it, I really quickly put myself as the center of the world and have forgotten that other people have stories. Other people have things that they’re going through. I don’t know what’s going on in somebody else’s day. And it’s so, like I’m so quick, to just be concerned about my own impact, like what impacts me in my little world and forget to be looking at other people’s stories and what they’re going through, and like you said, extending grace for people then and going, like, “Well, I actually don’t know,” or going above and beyond and trying- that’s not even above and beyond, but going, changing that narrative, and trying to go, “Well, what are they going through, so how could I have extra extra grace for that person?” But really quickly it can be like, “I am the universe.
Joey: Mm-hmm. Well I think left to ourselves we’ll all wind up there, but there again, that’s being a part of the community that’s watching over you, reminding you of the grace that you’ve received, “Now extend it,” you know, but I think, like, I can’t remember who sad it, but like, “Hurt people hurt people,” you know, and just growing up, I was bullied really bad in school and things like that, and all looking back it’s like, “Okay, why did they bully?” you know, “What were they going through in their home life?” or you know, “Did they have an older brother, sister, or older person in their life picking on them?” or whatever. And I think all of us just don’t want to have this sense of control and it doesn’t work, you know, but just again, extending, I didn’t realize until, you know, in the last handful of years, how much that bullying affected me and how I view myself and just forgiving them. Being like, “They need grace too,” you know.
Abby: It’s crazy the wounds we can carry with us for so long without realizing that we’re still carrying that thing.
Joey: Yeah, and it’s completely shaped my personality, how I deal with stress, how I deal with all sorts of things. And I don’t think, I don’t know if that ever all goes away. Buy we need to, I believe we need to go to the scriptures. We need to have the Holy Spirit. We need to have people in our lives, solid Christians around us that will help us either change things we can change or help us cope with things we can’t change, you know?
Abby: Yea, yeah. Build that community actively.
Joey: Community is so important.
Abby: I think so, I think so. At least in my life, it has proven, like, I don’t think I would have made it through seasons of my life if I didn’t have people alongside of me, like, holding my arms up when I couldn’t.
Joey: Mm-hmm. And I think it’s important that we have community that’s different than us, which is why I personally think the church is so great, because there’s a lot of people there I would never be friends with normally, you know, but to have that common bond in Christ, but then you also get to reap people that you would never normally associate with, you know, their wisdom, their experience, their knowledge, all this stuff, and it makes us all better people, you know, when we can learn from each other.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. I think that’s interesting that that’s how you view it because I think a lot of people think church is just a bunch of the same people in a room.
Joey: Then they have never been there long enough
Abby: So like, I like that, it is a bunch of different people, but I think kind of, again, bucking that, I think a lot of people, if they’ve even gone to church at all, think that it’s very much like, “Oh, this is just like where the uppity goody-two-shoes people go and your life has to be perfect and no one’s dealing with real things there.” So again, that just like mindset of what church culture is, instead of realizing, like, “Actually, this is like where the broken people should be going.”
Joey: Yeah, and I mean, I get it. That’s, again, that’s, going back to that church culture I grew up in and I totally get it. And I’ll tell people I get it, but it doesn’t have to be that way, you know?
Abby: Right.
Joey: The more vulnerable people we have in church the better we’re gonna be.
Abby: Yeah, I agree. And I think that people who are showing up and doing that- I think you mentioned this earlier, but when you do it first, it’s just really crazy, the amount of times when you lead with vulnerability, people will respond in it in turn, but it takes one saying, like, “I’m gonna push past it. I’m gonna be awkward first. I’m gonna share the thing first.” And usually as soon as somebody does, that I’ve been amazed at like how it just makes the walls come tumbling down. Like, people, I think people want to be in relationship at like a core level. I think we’re designed for relationship and people want it and I think there’s, we live in a world that’s trying to attack it.
Joey: Yeah, and we try to protect ourselves from that vulnerability, yeah. And I’m not even the best person in our church to be vulnerable.
Abby: Really?
Joey: Yeah, but Leanne is much better than I am. There’s often times that she confesses in or says something she’s struggling with or whatever, nd then we pray for her, next thin you know, other people are doing it too. Yeah, that’s great.
Abby: Don’t you love that? Good partners, good partners. Well, we end every episode of Beyond the Bar with two questions, they’re the two questions I want to know from people. So it’s a two-part question. First part of the question is, if you could go back and tell your younger self one thing, what would it be? And then part two is, what’s one thing you want to be remembered for?
Joey: So I knew this was coming ‘cause I listened to a couple episodes already, and even when I was listening, I heard you ask someone else things, the first thing that came to my mind for your part one: run to Jesus. And I’ve been trying to think about that throughout the past week, like, what do I mean by that? And I don’t know exactly. I just, I wish I could tell myself that when I was younger. And it doesn’t mean, like, I regret all the decisions I made, or like, it’s all made made me who I am today, but I wish I would have ran to Jesus earlier. I think I would have understood more about me and my purpose earlier. I think I would have found more comfort, healing, all of that stuff earlier on. Obviously it wouldn’t have made me a perfect me, but just, like, I think so often I or other people will chase after other things for the answers, and the answer’s always Jesus, and just to run to Him, you know?
Abby: Yeah, but I love how you said that. You don’t regret it, like, you wouldn’t unwrite the story, because it’s made you who you are.
Joey: Right. Well, it’s your, “Redemption”, you know, it’s all about being redeemed, through Christ, but I do think there are things, I wish it would have been different. It is what it is. But whether things are going good or bad, run to Jesus, you know, that should be a constant.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. Love that.
Joey: And your part two was..?
Abby: My part two was what’s one thing you want to be remembered for.
Joey: Yes. I have shared this with people before when they asked, “What do you want on your gravestone?” or whatever. “He loved Jesus and people well.” And I haven’t always been the most loving person, and that’s something I am constantly bringing to the Lord. I want to be more loving in every way, and that’s something I hope that he continues to chip away at on my journey and then that I’m remembered for it.
Abby: I love that. I think loving people well, like, I’ve alluded to it earlier, but I just think that’s like the point here. Like, the point is relationships. It’s the point, is the people we’re doing life with next to us, it’s the impact you’re gonna have on those lives around you, and that’s done through loving people well.
Joey: And you don’t love them for the people you want them to be, love them for who they are.
Abby: Yeah, yeah. The rock-listening, butterfly picture-taking people that they are, which I think is great. Well I have loved this conversation, I appreciate you being willing to sit down on the show before you even knew what the show was going to be like.
Joey: It’s awesome.
Abby: But this has just been such a good conversation and I really appreciate your vulnerability through the whole thing. That’s what we’re trying to do here, is having authentic conversations over cups of coffee.
Joey: Yes, always good with coffee.
Abby: Always good with coffee, but just real life stories, so I appreciate you being willing to share yours.
Joey: Yeah, and I know we live a couple hours away from each other and we don’t talk to each other a whole lot but I was super honored that you even considered me to be on your podcast, so thank you.
Abby: Yeah, well it was a no-brainer on my hands, no-brainer, and it proved me true because I just thought this was fantastic, so I appreciate it. Well thanks guys for being here, you can hit that subscribe button or follow along on whatever platform you are listening, and we will see you next time!
